Ive enjoyed this thread...marked for further amusement later
Jon Preston
JoinedPosts by Jon Preston
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Atheists, here is a 'balls' question ---even for all---
by prologos init is very difficult to knock a ball into a hole (like golf), throw it into a receiver's hands (american football) intercept it and knock it over the fence (american cricket).
or to put a sattelite at the right time at the right speed in the right direction in the right place to have it orbit another body, so :.
what ingenious natural & process is it, than can get 9+ zillions bodies to get into the right orbit simultaniously or sequentially and have them remain there for billions of years?
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Jehovahs Witnesses make a big deal about following first century christianity, so please explain this.
by smiddy inwhere in the christian greek scriptures do disciples of christ record how many hours a month they preached.. " " " " 10 hours for women and children and slack husbands with no ambition.
" " " " do they record how many back calls / return visits they made in a month.. " " " " have they set down how many bible studys they had in a month.. " " " " do they have pioneers ,special pioneers , aux.pioneers , with goals to reach each month.. " " " " do they have d.o.
, c.o., zone servants , etc.etc.. " " " " where in the christian greek scriptures is the word " organisation" applied to christianity.
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Jon Preston
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Chat with Elder, how would you reply?
by awakening inhad a sit down chat with an elder who is aware of my doubts.
we were on the subject of new light, i was saying that if the org changes a teaching then the old teaching was wrong and cannot qualify as truth at the time it was taught, so where did the falsehood come from?.
his response was the gb is imperfect!!
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Jon Preston
Without Judas Jesus wouldnt have been captured and crucified....therefore prophecy would not be fulfilled....he knew ahead of time Judas woukd betray him......
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The Annual Meeting Quote
by confusedandalone insomeone told me today that at the annual meeting something was said along the lines that, we do not need to be like the boreans and search that everything is true because we know we have the truth.
can anyone confirm this?.
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Jon Preston
No this was said by Anthony Morris...he said that that scripture does not mean to test to see if youre in the truth....we know we are in the truth. It means to test yourself to make sure you are remaining in the truth (the org). I remember the vomit coming up my thriat when he said it.
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Jon Preston
i know Leolaia has some fantastic research on these subjects and i have marked a few of them so some can view what she has said. Leolaia has also given suggestions on books to read on the subject -- Mark S. Smith's The Early History of God and John Day'sYahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan.
But i know that thise active lurking JWs will be entering The God El, Ugaritic, Asherah, etc into Jw.org onkine library. What will they find?And is the WT being forthright and accurate in its deliction of the research on these subjects?
Ill start with the wt 03 article on the ugaritic texts
from WT 03
Treasure Trove of Inscriptions
Thousands of clay tablets were discovered throughout the ruins of Ugarit. Economic, legal, diplomatic, and administrative texts have been found in eight languages, written in five scripts. Schaeffer’s team found inscriptions in a hitherto unknown language—given the name Ugaritic—using 30 cuneiform signs, which made up one of the oldest alphabets ever discovered.
In addition to covering mundane matters, Ugaritic documents contain literary texts that opened a new door to the religious concepts and practices of the time. The religion of Ugarit appears to have borne great similarities to that practiced by the neighboring Canaanites. According to Roland de Vaux, these texts “are a fairly accurate reflection of civilization in the land of Canaan just prior to the Israelite conquest.”
Religion in the City of Baal
More than 200 gods and goddesses are mentioned in the Ras Shamra texts. The supreme deity was El, called the father of the gods and of man. And the storm god Baal-Hadad was “the rider of the clouds” and “the lord of the earth.” El is depicted as a wise, white-bearded old man remote from humanity. On the other hand, Baal is a strong and ambitious deity who seeks to rule over the gods and mankind.
The discovered texts were probably recited during religious festivals, such as the new year or the harvest. However, the exact interpretation is obscure. In one poem about a dispute over rulership, Baal defeats El’s favorite son, the sea-god Yamm. This victory perhaps gave Ugarit’s sailors confidence that Baal would protect them at sea. In a duel with Mot, Baal is overcome and descends to the underworld. A drought ensues, and human activities cease. Baal’s wife and sister Anat—goddess of love and war—kills Mot and restores Baal to life. Baal massacres the sons of El’s wife, Athirat (Asherah), and regains the throne. But Mot returns seven years later.
Some interpret this poem as a symbol of the annual cycle of the seasons during which life-giving rains are overcome by the torrid heat of summer and return in the autumn. Others think that the seven-year cycle relates to fear of famine and drought. In either case, Baal’s preeminence was considered essential for the success of human endeavors. Scholar Peter Craigie notes: “The goal of Baal’s religion was to secure his supremacy; only while he remained supreme, so his worshipers believed, would the crops and cattle so essential to human survival continue.”
A Rampart Against Paganism
Clearly evident in the texts unearthed is the depravity of Ugaritic religion. The Illustrated Bible Dictionary comments: “The texts show the degrading results of the worship of these deities; with their emphasis on war, sacred prostitution, sensuous love and the consequent social degradation.” De Vaux observes: “On reading these poems, one understands the repulsion that true believers in Yahwism and the great prophets felt for this worship.” The Law that God gave the ancient nation of Israel was a rampart against such false religion.
Divination, astrology, and magic were widely practiced in Ugarit. Signs and omens were sought not only in the heavenly bodies but also in deformed fetuses and the viscera of slaughtered animals. “It was believed that the god to whom a ritually sacrificed animal was offered identified with it and that the god’s spirit fused with the animal’s spirit,” comments historian Jacqueline Gachet. “As a result, by reading the signs visible on these organs, it was possible to have clear access to the spirit of divinities who were able to give either a positive or a negative answer to a question on future events or on the course of action to take in a specific situation.” (Le paysd’Ougarit autour de 1200 av.J.C.) In contrast, the Israelites were to shun such practices.—Deuteronomy 18:9-14.
The Mosaic Law clearly forbade bestiality. (Leviticus 18:23) How was this practice viewed in Ugarit? In the discovered texts, Baal copulates with a heifer. “If it be argued that Baal assumes the shape of a bull for the act,” commented archaeologist Cyrus Gordon, “the same cannot be said for his priests who re-enacted his mythological career.”
The Israelites were commanded: “You must not make cuts in your flesh for a deceased soul.” (Leviticus 19:28) Reacting to Baal’s death, however, El “cut his skin with a knife, he made incisions with a razor; he cut his cheeks and chin.” Ritual laceration was apparently a custom among Baal worshipers.—1 Kings 18:28.
One Ugaritic poem seems to indicate that cooking a kid in milk was part of a fertility rite common in Canaanite religion. In the Mosaic Law, however, the Israelites were ordered: “You must not boil a kid in its mother’s milk.”—Exodus 23:19.
Comparisons With Bible Texts
Ugaritic texts were originally translated primarily with the help of Biblical Hebrew. Peter Craigie observes: “There are many words employed in the Hebrew text whose meanings are unclear and, sometimes, unknown; translators prior to the 20th century surmised, by various means, their possible meaning. But when the same words occur in the Ugaritic text, progress is possible.”
For example, a Hebrew word used at Isaiah 3:18 is generally translated “headbands.” A similar Ugaritic root designates both the sun and the sun-goddess. Hence, the women of Jerusalem mentioned in Isaiah’s prophecy may have been adorned with little sun pendants as well as “moon-shaped ornaments” in honor of Canaanite gods.
My issue is this: the WT only paints the picture from Yahwehs followers' perspective. But wasnt Yahweh one of the Gods or sons of. El?
im posting because i need help discerning some of this and to compare with what WT says (for lurkers).
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YHWH a minor pagan god: Ugaritic Texts and the Sons of El
by DoomVoyager ininteresting.. here is the first thing i've found on the subject, though i haven't read much of it yet.. http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hildebrandt/otesources/05-deuteronomy/text/articles/heiser-deut32-bs.htm.
pseudo.
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Jon Preston
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Deuteronomy 32:7-9 Who is the Most High?
by Steve J inplease excuse me if you've discussed this topic before, but as a "newbie" i haven't found anything on it as yet.. 7 remember the days of old, consider the years back from generation to generation; ask your father and he can tell you; your old men and they can say it to you.
8 when the most high gave the nations an iheritance, when he parted the sons of adam fron one another, he proceeded to fix the boundary of the peoples with regard for the sons of israel.
9 for jehovah's share is his people; jacob is the allotment that he inherits.
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Jon Preston
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Active JW's, can you defend "THE TRUTH?"
by DATA-DOG inas of yet, no member of the jehovah's witness faith can defend their unique beliefs.
when the dust settles, it all comes down to blind faith in men's ever-changing ideas.
this "unique belief" was not a "true teaching of the bible.
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Jon Preston
Put it this way DOT. I had a problem with the WT of may 1972 where it said "They will know a "prophet" was among them" and the response i got was that they didnt mean a literal prophet cause it was in quotes.....What theyve done DOat is used other words that are similar to the meaning and tried to explain it away. For instance when a false prophecy or a date was stamped that didnt come true instead of admitting mistakes they said things like "some had false expectations". Its all wordplay my friend. Its like telling part of a story and omitting somethings so you dont have to just downright lie....
And what Heavensgate said about growth and "Gods people" growing in numbers--what did Jesus say about people performing powerful works in his name?
So just because some organization does something powerful it does NOT mean it is from God or the "one" true organization.
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Active JW's, can you defend "THE TRUTH?"
by DATA-DOG inas of yet, no member of the jehovah's witness faith can defend their unique beliefs.
when the dust settles, it all comes down to blind faith in men's ever-changing ideas.
this "unique belief" was not a "true teaching of the bible.
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Jon Preston
Think of it this way defender...WHay wont they let you do your own research? What is it THEY have to hide? You have already seen from their history that there has been dishonesty....is this humble? No. Humility is admitting mistakes when u make them. Have you read Steven Hassans work? He is not an apostate and this might let you look objectively at the organization without compromising you...
when inwas young, and i didnsomething wrong i would FIRST point to my brother and say HE DID IT!! This is the tactic done by WT and then they control the information you are allowed to look at--information that may reveal anything theyve covered up or goes against what they want you to think.